Thân thọ khổ, tâm có thọ khổ chăng?

Update: 02/10/2015

Thân thọ khổ, tâm có thọ khổ chăng?


Beside Body in Suffering, Whether the Same as Mind?

King Milinda asked Venerable Nàgasena:

- Venerable Nàgasena!

When suffering arises, the Arahant suffers from one side, but the normal one has to suffer from both sides, don’t they?

- O king, please make it more clearly.

- Venerable, it means the Arahant only agonizes of body but the ordinary person has to bear it from both body and mind, doesn’t it?

-  Yes they are.

-  Then when the Arahant’s body is suffered, doesn’t it really relate to the mind?

-  That is correct!

-  It means the mind and body of an Arahant have no concern to each other!

-  It is not correct. They must be interdependent to each other.

King Milinda smiles:

- Venerable! Don’t you think that they are full of contradictions? Mind and body are interdependent but when the body gets suffering; then the mind is without any concern. This is not strong enough for persuasion, venerable!

Venerable Nàgasena also smiles and replies:

-  You have doubt because you haven’t experienced yet. You are still under the control of your mind; then how can you understand the Arahants’ mind. Their minds can’t be their owners any more; therefore, the feeling of suffering can’t affect to their minds at all. It is such a simple.

- This seems logical but in deeply analysis it is impossible. Why? Because if they really can control the mind then why not the body?

- O king, the body can’t be controlled!

- Why not, Venerable?

- When you feel pain, can you ask your body for stoping it?

- Definitely no.

- When it gets old age, weakness, can the mind commands the body to stop it?

- Venerable, it is impossible.

- Not only suffering, old age, death, ect. but also hot, cold, thirst, misery, urination, defecation, sleeping, ect always accompany with body, affect to the three worlds and the six realms, but the mind can’t meddle, manage or recommend. It means the mind can’t control the body.

King Milinda agrees:

- I accept this explanation, but why, in the Vinaya monks, are always reminded for nurturing mind and body?

- Body can’t be managed but can cultivate and nurture. Nurture means confinement in its bound and don’t let it go too far where in the karma can be created as killing, stealingect. O king, you should understand the difference between controlling and nurturing which are different.

- Really it can’t be controlled but held back little by little. Venerable! Could you give me an example?

- Sure! The mind depends on the body to express its ideas as eating, speaking, sitting, standing, walking; just like people depend on the earth to create the material facilities. However, the mind can ask the body for acting in its restriction because the body, anyhow, is formed by the four elements of fire, earth, wind and water; therefore, it is still affected by the combination and separation as well as the balance of those elements. It means the body is impacted by the natural law of the universe. In the same of human being in depending on the earth for living but they are still limited in using the free support from the earth in some way; they can’t force or ask the earth to serve them according to their desires. Why not? Because the earth is under the domination of the natural principles too.

 - It’s really good, Venerable Nàgasena! But this is for the normal people. Is it same for the Arahant? Do they let the mind be out of the suffering of body as heat, cold, pain? (When the body gets pain, heat, cold; then the mind can control them?)

- It is not body-controlling. In the case of the arahant, the word “body-controlling” can’t be applied. It should be said the Arahant’s mind is trained and cultivated already therefore the pain, heat, cold have no effect to their mind.

- Then for the normal people, because the mind still hasn’t trained yet then they naturally get impact by pain, immediately get it?

- Yes, there are. For example a bull is tied with rope by the owner in order to keep him away from water, grass. The bull is influenced by starving and craving then he struggles and bellows out in pain. But the more struggle, the more pain he will get because of rope-tightening. This is the image of all beings in this world too. The bull is living beings. Grass and water are the five desires. Sentient beings because of seeking those desires, they get suffering. They also struggle and screaming; more suffering they will get when they try to struggle. All living beings with the un-cultivating mind will be in the same case without knowing that no matter how much they try to struggle, they can’t escape from suffering. The Àjànaya, a good race of horse, with the well-trained will not behave as the bull above. They will keep standstill although grass and water are not sent to. This is example for the mind of an Arahant, who with the well-trained of mind, has no influence from the body-suffering. Their mind is unshakable in front of changing of external world. They have tied their minds into a solid stone pillar, it is Samadhi. Therefore, though the body gets suffering, the mind has no concern.

- I almost understand it, Venerable.

- Let we continue another day.

- It should be, Venerable!

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